Blackness during Zazen
Dear Nishijima Roshi,
First of all, thanks for having this channel to allow westerns like me to get in touch with you and freely ask questions about our practice. Saudações do Brasil ! =)
My question is: during my practice of zazen (or would it be shikantaza, because I don't focus on anything like my hara in specific ?) sometimes (not always, but frequently) it happens that for a long time I lose awareness of everything -- of myself, of time, of my mind, of objects -- everything. I sit and it feels like 10 minutes have passed, when in fact one hour or more have passed. Is this alright ? Am I doing something wrong ? It is almost as if I fell in deep sleep, except that I don't think this is the case because I had my wife watching me to see if this was the case, which wasn't.
I have never received formal instructions on how to practice zazen, so I take into consideration the written instructions I've read in books like "The Three Pillars of Zen", for example -- just sit quietly and let thoughts come and go by themselves, not attaching nor repulsing them. I don't keep my focus on my hara or anything else, I just don't focus on anything specific.
Thank you !
Daniel
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(Gudo's answer) I remember that the auther of "The Three Pillars of Zen" belongs to Master Sogaku Harada's lineage, but Master Sogaku Harada, even though he belonged to Soto Sect, he visited Rinzai Sect, and coming back to Soto Sect, he insisted that Rinzai Sect's theory was right. But I never think so.
(Daniel's reply and question) I understand it now ! Then it's good, because I have never meditated having something as focus. What about the lack of awareness of objects I mentioned on the question, is that normal or does it mean I am doing something wrong, because I am supposed to be always aware ?
Thank you for your kind answer!
First of all, thanks for having this channel to allow westerns like me to get in touch with you and freely ask questions about our practice. Saudações do Brasil ! =)
My question is: during my practice of zazen (or would it be shikantaza, because I don't focus on anything like my hara in specific ?) sometimes (not always, but frequently) it happens that for a long time I lose awareness of everything -- of myself, of time, of my mind, of objects -- everything. I sit and it feels like 10 minutes have passed, when in fact one hour or more have passed. Is this alright ? Am I doing something wrong ? It is almost as if I fell in deep sleep, except that I don't think this is the case because I had my wife watching me to see if this was the case, which wasn't.
I have never received formal instructions on how to practice zazen, so I take into consideration the written instructions I've read in books like "The Three Pillars of Zen", for example -- just sit quietly and let thoughts come and go by themselves, not attaching nor repulsing them. I don't keep my focus on my hara or anything else, I just don't focus on anything specific.
Thank you !
Daniel
-------------------------------------
(Gudo's answer) I remember that the auther of "The Three Pillars of Zen" belongs to Master Sogaku Harada's lineage, but Master Sogaku Harada, even though he belonged to Soto Sect, he visited Rinzai Sect, and coming back to Soto Sect, he insisted that Rinzai Sect's theory was right. But I never think so.
(Daniel's reply and question) I understand it now ! Then it's good, because I have never meditated having something as focus. What about the lack of awareness of objects I mentioned on the question, is that normal or does it mean I am doing something wrong, because I am supposed to be always aware ?
Thank you for your kind answer!
posted by ZenCodeMonkey | 1:26 PM
3 Comments:
Dear Nishijima Roshi,
First of all, thanks for having this channel to allow westerns like me to get in touch with you and freely ask questions about our practice. Saudações do Brasil ! =)
My question is: during my practice of zazen (or would it be shikantaza, because I don't focus on anything like my hara in specific ?) sometimes (not always, but frequently) it happens that for a long time I lose awareness of everything -- of myself, of time, of my mind, of objects -- everything. I sit and it feels like 10 minutes have passed, when in fact one hour or more have passed. Is this alright ? Am I doing something wrong ? It is almost as if I fell in deep sleep, except that I don't think this is the case because I had my wife watching me to see if this was the case, which wasn't.
(Gudo's opinion) I clearly notice that your interpretation of Zazen is true.
It is very laughale situations that many people much worry about the state of the abdomen. Of course it is the place, where the autonomic nervous system is densely collected, but it is not necessary for us to worry about it. The most important point in Zazen is to keep the spine straight vertically identifying it with the line of gravity.
(Daniel San's question) I have never received formal instructions on how to practice zazen, so I take into consideration the written instructions I've read in books like "The Three Pillars of Zen", for example -- just sit quietly and let thoughts come and go by themselves, not attaching nor repulsing them. I don't keep my focus on my hara or anything else, I just don't focus on anything specific.
(Gudo's answer) I remember that the auther of "The Three Pillars of Zen" belongs to Master Sogaku Harada's lineage, but Master Sogaku Harada, even though he belonged to Soto Sect, he visited Rinzai Sect, and coming back to Soto Sect, he insisted that Rinzai Sect's theory was right. But I never think so.
Gudo Wafu Nishijima
Thank you !
Daniel
posted by ZenCodeMonkey at 1:26 PM on Jan 22,
Daniel,
You're hitting a state of non-perception. If possible, you need to find an experienced meditation teacher to get you past this obstacle. Your experience sounds exactly like it:
"The second state was one I happened to hit one night when my concentration was extremely one-pointed, and so refined that it refused settle on or label even the most fleeting mental objects. I dropped into a state in which I lost all sense of the body, of any internal/external sounds, or of any thoughts or perceptions at all — although there was just enough tiny awareness to let me know, when I emerged, that I hadn't been asleep. I found that I could stay there for many hours, and yet time would pass very quickly. Two hours would seem like two minutes. I could also "program" myself to come out at a particular time.
After hitting this state several nights in a row, I told Ajaan Fuang about it, and his first question was, "Do you like it?" My answer was "No," because I felt a little groggy the first time I came out. "Good," he said. "As long as you don't like it, you're safe. Some people really like it and think it's nibbana or cessation. Actually, it's the state of non-perception (asaññi-bhava). It's not even right concentration, because there's no way you can investigate anything in there to gain any sort of discernment. But it does have other uses." He then told me of the time he had undergone kidney surgery and, not trusting the anesthesiologist, had put himself in that state for the duration of the operation.
In both these states of wrong concentration, the limited range of awareness was what made them wrong. If whole areas of your awareness are blocked off, how can you gain all-around insight? And as I've noticed in years since, people adept at blotting out large areas of awareness through powerful one-pointedness also tend to be psychologically adept at dissociation and denial. This is why Ajaan Fuang, following Ajaan Lee, taught a form of breath meditation that aimed at an all-around awareness of the breath energy throughout the body, playing with it to gain a sense of ease, and then calming it so that it wouldn't interfere with a clear vision of the subtle movements of the mind. This all-around awareness helped to eliminate the blind spots where ignorance likes to lurk."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/jhananumbers.html
"Another type of wrong concentration is one that a modern practice tradition, following DN 1, calls a state of non-perception (asaññi).. In this state, which is essentially a concentration of subtle aversion — the result of a strongly focused determination not to stay with any one object — everything seems to cease: the mind blanks out, with no perception of sights or sounds, or of one's own body or thoughts. There is just barely enough mindfulness to know that one hasn't fainted or fallen asleep. One can stay there for long periods of time, and yet the experience will seem momentary. One can even determine beforehand when one will leave the state; but on emerging from it, one may feel somewhat dazed or drugged, a reaction caused by the intense aversive force of the concentration that induced the state to begin with. There are other forms of wrong concentration, but a general test is that right concentration is a mindful, fully alert state. Any state of stillness without clear mindfulness and alertness is wrong."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/wings/part3.html#part3-e
(To the moderator) My last comment wasn't meant to be subversive, but I think you should post it given the fact that Daniel's experience can cause psychological damage if he keeps falling into that state.
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